A very good evening. It is 4 minutes
past 7 on LBC. Uh tonight we are coming
from Glasgow, sunny Glasgow, I'm going
to say because it's actually quite warm
here today. Um and the reason is that we
have Nicholas Sturgeon with us for the
first hour of the program. Now, uh we're
also streaming this. So if you want to
watch this, you can do so on global
player. Um the reason that we have
Nicola with us is, as you may be aware,
she has published her autobiography.
It's called Frankly. It's got one of the
I have to say, I think this is one of
the best book covers I've seen. uh this
year. Nichollet, welcome.
>> Hello. Thank you for having me on.
>> Now, people always think that a work of
autobiography is a work of fiction about
yourself. That's what's of often said,
and I think a lot of politicians find it
a very challenging thing to do to to be
honest in an autobiography, to admit
where they've got things wrong as well
as say where they've got things right.
When you were writing this book,
>> how did you decide what to put in, what
to leave out? There's a lot of personal
stuff in here, isn't there?
>> Yeah. I mean, I I guess I an admission
first of all, I'm not a massive fan of
political memoirs. I find them very
often. I know you do. You're a geek.
God, I should have insulted you at the
very start of the interview. But I I
often find them a bit kind of tedious
and turgid. So, I didn't want to write
something like that. It's for others to
judge whether I've succeeded or not.
And, you know, I've lived my life in the
public eye. That's been my choice. It's
not a complaint. and people talk about
my life and there's endless caricatures
of me out there. So, I wanted to put my
story into my words. Um, it's my story
from my perspective. So, it's not a work
of fiction obviously, but it's
subjective. It's it's the world and you
know, my career and my life is as I see
it. And the decision on what to keep in
uh and what to leave out was was a
difficult one. I mean, obviously, as
well as being a personal story, this is
a an account of an extraordinary three
decades in Scottish and and UK political
history. So, I wanted to cover all of
the big events that, you know, I had a
unique vantage point on and the I guess
the events that had a big impact on me
personally. So, I think the book I've
published, you know, people can make up
their own minds about it, but I I've
covered everything that felt to me to be
material and meaningful to my political
and personal story. One of the running
themes of the book is your shyness, that
you're an introverted person, that you
have mass you suffer from massive
imposttor syndrome and we'll talk about
that in a lot more detail in a moment.
But why on earth did you pick a career
in politics if if that if that was the
way that you're you're built?
>> Yeah, I mean it's it's a really good
question and I don't know that I have
even now at 55 years old the perfect
answer to that. As a child, I was, and I
tried to explain this in the book, and
you know, lots of people will identify
with this. I think I was a walking
contradiction. I was really shy. You
know, I preferred to have my nose in a
book than to be out playing with with
friends. But alongside that, and it's
really hard to articulate this without
making myself sound, you know, a bit
arrogant because that was not, you know,
where it came from. I had this sense
that I was going to do something in life
that was a bit out of the ordinary. So I
had these two, you know, competing sort
of pressures, you know, the the desire
to hide away under a table with a book
and the desire to sort of go and do
something, you know, out of the
>> You were found under a table reading a
book at your fifth birthday.
>> I mean, to be fair to me, I didn't want
a fifth birthday party. My mother
insisted and my friends were playing
party games and I was under a table with
a book. Um,
>> I lock myself in the toilet at my fifth
birthday.
>> We have something almost in common. I
think, you know, at 55 I There's plenty
of days when I prefer to hide under a
table with a book. So that contradiction
has always been in me and I've had to
work really hard to overcome the former
in order to do the the latter and and
you know coupled with that has been this
you know lack of confidence the we voice
in my head what people would call in
imposttor syndrome. I think I reached a
point in life when I I I went from
seeing that as a bit of a handicap to
actually being a bit of a superpower. I
think if you've got a a natural shyness,
a lack of confidence, but you want to
push yourself to do things, you end up
working harder than you you would
otherwise and perhaps achieving more
than you would otherwise. So, I think
it's worked out okay for me, but you
know, even today I'm I'm much happier. I
use a phrase in the book, which you
know, I don't claim original authorship
of, but I use the phrase public
introvert. Um, I am very comfortable
standing on a stage talking to thousands
of people. I'm much less comfortable in
a a room with 10 people uh having to
make small talk. And again, you know,
while not everybody goes and does the
big public facing jobs that I've done, I
think more people than we might
appreciate will identify with that sort
of contradiction.
>> I I think there is a lot of that in a
lot of people in the public eye, not not
just in politics. Um I mean I think
Theresa May
>> well Theresa May I mean having
interacted with Theresa May while I was
first minister of the five prime
ministers that I did work with the one
that I had the greatest respect for. Um
but I think she was is also very
introverted and and a lot of you know
how she presented although I disagreed
with her politically I could absolutely
identify with because I think it came
from that same place of shyness and
introversion.
Well, we'll come back a lot more to that
because I think a lot of people who
suffer from imposter syndrome
particularly, I think, get over it after
a time, but reading the book, I'm not
sure you ever really have. I mean, even
uh big moments in your political life.
You seem to be very unconfident in
yourself, but you managed to mask that
from the public because I I mean, I was
genuinely surprised by a lot of this
now. I mean, we don't know each other
well.
met you three times, I think. But I was
very surprised at at you saying all of
that.
>> I think people are surprised and and you
know, the older I've got and the further
I've advanced in politics,
understandably, it gets more difficult
to con convince people that I'm this
little shy wallflower. Um, and and I get
that, but I I think I don't know if
people do ever completely get over
imposter syndrome. Maybe they they think
they do or claim to do. I just wonder if
that's that's true. I I mean for me it
wasn't something that held me back. It
was something I'm not saying there was
no downside to it but I think there was
more of an upside to a downside because
it probably did make me think more about
decisions I was taking you know wrestle
more with decisions. It probably made
the process of decision- making harder
for me. Um but you know maybe maybe the
world would be a slightly better place
if more senior leaders had a dose of
imposttor syndrome. I don't know. Do do
you think it held you back initially? In
>> it did. It held me back initially. I
think, you know, I I got involved in
politics at a very young age, but I I
was going to SNP meetings probably for a
year or more before I uttered a word at
them. I was, you know, I was just I was
desperate to be there and to be part of
it, but I just couldn't get the words
out. So, it held me back for a bit. you
know, somebody um and I'm sure we'll
come on to talk about him later on that
played a part in helping me get over it
because he pushed me on and and gave me
a belief in myself, you know, before I
really felt it was Alex Salammon in my
earlier days. So, yeah, it it probably
made it harder for me um back then. And
as I, you know, it's there's ups and
downs to it, but I think I've preferred
in recent years to kind of focus on the
positives of it that yeah, it's driven
me on in a way that might not otherwise
have been the case.
>> You were interested in politics in in
your childhood. You talk in the book
about you you knocked on um an SM was it
an SMP candidate's door and said, "Can I
can I help?" Um but again, you and I
have something in common. Margaret
Thatcher inspired us to get involved in
politics, but in slightly different
ways,
>> different reason.
>> I mean, I Margaret I mean, obviously I
was a kid when Margaret Thatcher became
prime minister nine. And I don't I don't
I wouldn't claim to have really strong
memories of her election in 1979, but I
do have a vague kind of recollection of
thinking, oh, you know, that's good.
There's a woman in this really important
job. Um, which even, you know, back then
speaks to the power of representation. I
think it's fair to say over the next few
years my um views of Margaret Thatcher
became less positive. You I grew up in
the west of Scotland, you know, former
mining territory where I understand uh
you know a bit of as well and
>> well my grandfather was born in the
village
>> we have just discovered that we have
grew up in in Dreorn in in Irvin in part
of New Town. Um so yeah unemployment was
skyhigh there. There was a sense of, you
know, terror. If your dad lost his job,
he would never work again. Real sense of
hopelessness. And, you know, when I look
back on it now, I mean, a lot of the
economic transitions then were
inevitable. But it seemed to me
Thatcher, you know, didn't care. People
were just thrown onto the scrap heap.
And that politicized me and got me into
politics. And the sense that this was
all happening in Scotland when Scotland
didn't vote for Margaret Thatcher drove
my support and belief in Scottish
independence as well.
Um le let's roll forward to a couple of
years ago and we we'll talk about a lot
of issues in the in the interim but
whenever I broadcast a program from
anywhere I always if I'm in a cab I
always say to the cab driver look what
would you want me to ask the politician
that I'm interviewing. So today I asked
a Glasgow cab driver
>> asking Glasgow cab drivers anything is
very brave.
>> Yeah. He gave me quite a few questions.
>> I bet you did.
>> But the first one was why did she
resign?
Look, I I resigned for the reasons I set
out uh when I made the statement saying
that I was going to resign. Look, I
mean, I'll cut to the chase here. Eight
days after I left office as first
minister, the thing that everybody saw
on the televisions around my house
happened. I think it is entirely
understandable that people think, "Ah,
she knew that was about to happen, so
that's why she resigned." Categorically,
that's not the case. I mean, the the
period between me saying I was going to
resign and actually leaving office,
people around me will say I was more
relaxed than I'd been in a long, long
time. I was looking forward. If I'd
known that what happened was about to
happen, I would have been unable to
function. Um, so I stood down because
I'd reached a point I was exhausted to
be honest. We'd just come through co I'd
been first minister for eight and a half
years. The co years made it feel much
longer than that. I felt I just had
nothing more to give. I I felt, you
know, politics, not just in Scotland,
but globally becoming so polarized, so
toxic. I felt I was part of that
problem, not able to be part of the
solution.
>> But you felt that you were becoming too
divisive.
>> Yeah. And and people were viewing every
issue through a prism of what they
thought about me. So if they liked me,
they would back me on every and vice
versa. And it and it was very difficult
to sort of lead rational debate. and you
know that was my responsibility. So
these were the reasons I I stood down
there there was also a sense of you back
when I made that statement I was 53. I'd
been in politics I mean I've been in
parliament since I was 27. I've been in
you know government uh for I had been in
government at that point for 16 years.
I'd done nothing in my life really other
than pursue a political career and then
have a political career. And I I just
was at that kind of midlife point of
thinking if I don't you know start to
work out I know everybody knows who
Nicola the politician is but if I don't
start to kind of focus a bit more on
Nicola the person then I'm never going
to do that. So those were the reasons.
>> I mean essentially you were exhausted. I
was mentally and physically
>> because there were various points in the
book where uh you talked I think is it
the 2015 election
>> 2017 where you you were you barely
functioned at the end of that
>> I had this weird and I still don't know
what it was. I came back from a trip to
the states with this kind of weird chest
infection um that just wouldn't lift and
I I got a lung scan in hospital and they
there was nothing that they could see.
Um but right through that 2017 election
I was you know I was doing leaders
debates when I was struggling to
breathe. Um so but that that was a sort
of physical ailment back then. It was a
you know I was ill. Um later on after co
co you know co had such a big impact on
everybody but it it exhausted me. I I
went through 2020 without and I'm I'm
not asking for plaudits for this. It was
probably a really stupid thing to do. I
didn't take a single day off. um because
so focused was I on trying to kind of
lead the country through that and so I
was exhausted and I felt you know it's
the kind of job if you're not able to
give it 100% you shouldn't do it because
it needs 100%. So that's why I I stood
down. Obviously the two years uh after
that were you know challenging for
reasons that might
>> when I interviewed you at the 2023
Edinburgh Fringe I remember asking you
look you've been doing this job for
quite a long time. It you wouldn't be
human if you weren't thinking about when
to go and obviously I knew you weren't
going to suddenly announce on the
fringe. Will Ian your sash? You know, I
think I will. But and you you said no,
you you were still full of vim and
vigor. And then Justinda Ardurn, um I
think who I think you think a lot of I
mean she announced that she was going
presumably that was something that also
had a bit of
>> a strange thing when I said that to you.
I wasn't lying to you. I I believe I
didn't think you were. And even just I I
remember doing an interview with uh
Laura Kinsburg and the BBC just at this
you know the new year interviews on a
Sunday morning and you know she asked me
Justinda must just have announced her
resignation and you know Laura asked she
used that phrase nothing left in the
tank and so Laura said to me what about
you have you got plenty and I was like
absolutely and and I
I believed that or I was telling myself
I believed that but something that had
obviously been working away in my
subconscious for quite a while started
to rise to the top of my my mind in the
weeks after that. And the Justinda Arn
thing I I vividly remember turning on
the news that morning and hearing her
resignation statement. And I think it
took me maybe what must have taken me I
don't know whether hours or even a
couple of days to to articulate to
myself what I felt. But I suddenly
realized I felt envy
>> at the fact that she was walking away.
>> Once that little thing gets into that
started I think it then just it became a
question of of when not if and but I
still wrestled with it. I went you know
one day I would be convinced right I'm
I'm going the next day I can't just walk
away and so I went through a period of I
don't know for a few weeks of of back
and forth but I think by then I knew in
my gut that that's what I was going to
do.
>> Let's go back to that day when the
police knocked on your door. Um,
I mean I I can't imagine what was going
through your mind at at the time. Um, do
you think they would have done that had
you still been first minister?
>> I genuinely don't know. You must have
asked yourself, do
>> you know what? I've asked myself that a
lot. Do you know what? In a strange sort
of way,
>> I kind of hope the answer is yes,
because I wouldn't want to think that
what happened was influenced in any way.
people should be equal before the law
and there shouldn't be a difference in
treatment. So while had it happened
while I was still first minister I mean
it was horrific enough when it did
happen it would have been you know
doubly 10 times if I'd still been in
office but there is a part of me I think
if I was to sort of get to a point where
I thought no it wouldn't have happened
then that would raise really profound
questions in my mind about um so but I I
don't know I can't answer that question.
I do know when it happened. Um,
yeah, I think in the moment that morning
I I went into some kind of shock because
I remember fragments of it, but then
there's other bits that I I really
struggle with.
and you went to your parents, which I
think anybody would probably do in those
circumstances, but you must have you
must have had several days when you
really couldn't quite work out what was
going on. And your husband was arrested
and obviously because there are charges
pending, we can't go into a lot of the
the detail here,
>> but um I mean what was going through
your mind at that point? Um,
I just had a a kind of confusion. What
was this all about? I, you know, this
was an investigation that had been going
on for, you know, a couple years by that
point, I think. Um, I always, I I guess
I felt more of a sense of frustration
about it than any real concern because I
didn't believe there could be anything
uh of substance there. And obviously, I
can't go into the anything about
substance for the reasons you've just
said. So, I think I guess there was a
sense of bewilderment, confusion, and
and kind of horror and shame. You know,
my my house was being pictures of my
house were being beamed across the globe
looking like a murder scene. Um, so I I
kind of hunkered down at my mom and
dad's for two or three days, I think it
was. And, you know, the house I grew up
in as a kid, and that gave me it gave me
a kind of sense of security and comfort
that I really needed at that point. Um,
and then
>> what did your parents say to you when I
did you turn up on their doorstep?
>> No, my phone. So, in the morning, you
know, I was kind of, well, you have to
go somewhere else and and then it was
like, well, where am I going to go? Um,
and I set a lot of this out in the book
and and my initial instinct was to
protect my parents and not phone them. I
mean, I didn't realize in that moment
that that would have been impossible,
that within an hour it was going to be
headline news. Um so I phoned my you
know the woman who had been my chief of
staff as um first minister and she
luckily as it turned out she was in the
gym so she didn't answer the call so I I
had to phone my mom and dad and I'm so
glad it happened that way because being
with my parents is the only place I
really would have wanted to be. Um and
they were just they did what you know
good parents do. They basically just
like metaphorically put and literally in
some respect just put their arms around
me and like you know it's it'll all be
fine and just be here and be here for as
long as you need to be.
>> It took 2 years for you to be cleared by
the is that the right word? Um sort of
well the police didn't proceed with any
charges and they said they weren't going
to. Now, I think anybody who's been in
that situation, um, it it must be the
most horrendous pressure on you and and
you explain in great detail in the book
the pressure that you felt and the
effect it had on your mental health.
>> Yeah. I mean, it was,
you know, I can describe it and look
before I talk about this, people go
through much, much worse things. So, I'm
no in no way unique here, but it was
like a form of mental torture. It was
never not in my mind. There were days
where I was able to push it to the back
of my mind. There were days where it was
so dominant in my mind that I could
barely think of anything else. But it
was always there somewhere. I would lie
awake in the middle of the night
thinking about it. Um,
and it went on for a long, long time.
And you know, I would kind of think,
well, how much longer can it go on? I
knew I'd done nothing wrong. So
rationally, I knew it would have to end
in the way that it did end. But, you
know, you there is a sense of paranoia
kicks in the longer it goes on. Well,
are they going to sort of decide to say
I've done something wrong? So, it was a
really tough time. I think though what
I've tried to set in the book, and I
don't want to make it sound as if I
think, oh, it turned out to be a, you
know, really good thing for me. I wish
with everything I've got that it hadn't
happened. But I did learn a lot about
myself during it. And I did find a a
resilience that I've always been quite a
resilient person, but I found a depth of
resilience I did not know I had. And I
discovered what really good friendship
is. I had a really tight group of
friends who from day one just kind of
rallied around me and gave me practical
support, emotional support. And you
know, because of my focus on work over
the years, I'm not convinced I've always
been the best friend to other people,
but I've learned the power of friendship
and I hope I can repay it to these
people at some point.
>> Um, direct question. How much has all of
that episode
how how much what role did that play in
the end of your marriage?
>> A big role. I mean I I say in the book
you know we'd both kind of stepped back
from the front line well mine was front
line houses back room but still a very
senior position obviously in politics.
>> He was your husband was just to explain
to listeners he was chief executive of
the play a huge role in our election
success you know down the years. So, and
this now is a a question I can't answer
definitively because well, we don't know
whether it would have happened. But it's
possible we would have coming out of
these jobs and starting to do different
things in life. We would have grown
apart anyway. But the pressure of of
that period, yeah, I just think I I
maybe some relationships could and would
have survived that. I I would struggle
to see how that would be.
Um, do you think Alex Smon was right
when he advised you when you first took
on the job of um, leading the party that
maybe it was time for Peter to move on
as well? I
>> I've I guess my only hesitation in
answering that question directly is it
kind of somehow takes us into the
substance and starts to suggest that,
you know,
>> I don't think it does.
>> Well, because it would it would suggest
that, you know, there was wrongdoing or
whatever in that. But anyway, that's I
can see why people think that is what
I've said in the book and you can take
from that what you want. With me, that
kind of, you know, determination to kind
of pry into my personal life um I think
went beyond what it should have done.
And I've part of the reason I've chosen
to open up about my personal life in
this book is because I think after that
I want to try to redraw the boundaries.
I I don't expect I can ever be
completely private and anonymous, but I
do think for the next phase of my life,
I want to redraw the boundary between
the public and the private and actually
reclaim a private life.
>> Do I mean a personal question again, but
I mean since you announced your split
with your husband, I mean, do you still
talk a lot?
>> Yeah, I we we communicate. We obviously
I'm I'm concerned about how he is and
you know so from for from that point of
view we don't talk about you know the
the thing. Um
>> but you know you can't
>> is that what you call it the thing?
>> It's no it's not what I call it. It's
what I've just called it there because I
couldn't um I possibly sometimes call it
things that are less polite than that.
Um so yeah I I obviously I'm concerned
about his well-being and and so yeah we
we do but not about anything of
particular note.
>> You you do talk about um sexuality in
the book. You talk about you don't
regard your own sexuality as non-binary
which of course even by saying that
you've opened up a can of worms by
saying that haven't you? Because people
now are going well are speculating about
well what did she mean by that?
>> The thing is people were speculating
before that people are speculating that
that's the point I'm making. It's people
speculate whatever I say whether I say
nothing or or say. So what I mean by
that is you know it's not a sort of big
revelation about myself. It's not
labeling myself. It's just that's how I
see the world. I think I don't think
sexuality is binary and some people will
disagree with that. Some people would
will never want to concede that. But I
think that's probably true for most
people.
>> But does that does that mean that you
would be open to a relationship with a
woman?
>> I am right now
just out of a lengthy marriage, just out
of a pretty torid couple of years of my
life, I'm enjoying being single. And I
think that's as far as I'm going to go
right now.
>> Everyone says that, but they never
really mean it.
>> Do you know what? Look, a month from
now, two months from now, I might not
mean it. But but right now, I I do. Um,
I
I always kind of hesitate before, it's
not the first time I've said it in the
last week or so. I was so focused on
work when I was younger that I probably
didn't have as much fun as young people
should have. Um, so I think I'm I'm
living my a delayed adolescence at the
moment and I'm determined to do it.
>> So, you're on Tinder? Is that what
you're telling me?
>> I'm not on Tinder. I'm absolutely not on
Tinder.
>> I'm just trying to know. I'm just trying
to imagine someone swiping and just
seeing your face and thinking, "Oh,
>> no. Just for the purposes of any tabloid
newspapers listening to this, I am not
on Tinder. Don't go looking for me.
>> Oh, that would have been a headline,
wouldn't it? Uh, right. Lots more to
cover with Nicola Sturgeon. We're
talking about her autobiography. It's
called, frankly, it's out. Well, it's
been out for a week. How's it actually
going? I You're enjoying the whole
process.
>> Yeah, I'm really enjoying it. It's Look,
it's a bit like an election campaign.
Um, and I've been reminded of how
exhausting that is. Um, and you know,
it's taking me back a little bit into a
sort of world that feels like my old
world. um but with a difference because
it's a book, not politics or not
straight politics. Um but yeah, I mean
I'm enjoying it and uh I've always
wanted to write a book and I've done it
and lots of people are reading it and
buying it which I'm hugely hugely
grateful for.
>> Well, lots more to come on LBC. We're
going I'm going to I'm going to approach
the subject of Alex Salmon next. So
Nicholas got Nicholas got a couple of
minutes to think about that one. Uh
let's it's what what's the time now?
It's 7:32.
Um, it doesn't tell me on my screen who
the news reader is, so I'm going to
guess that it might be Amelia Fox. 7:34
on LBC. Apologies to Amelia Cox, not
Fox, as I just said. I should know that
by now, shouldn't I? Uh, we're talking
to Nicholas Sturgeon live in Glasgow
about her autobiography, frankly. Now,
there's one name that permeates all of
the political pages is, of course, Alex
Salmon, who you say was was your mentor.
Um, obviously the relationship I think
over time sort of deteriorated, didn't
it? It wasn't sort of there wasn't one
thing that
>> it deteriorated over time, but not to a
point where we were estranged or
anything. That only happened with the
the allegations and complaints against
him
>> and he was cleared of those allegations.
>> He was cleared of criminal behavior.
But, you know, he I think in his trial
and and what he said to me, I think he
uh you know, he conceded that his
behavior towards women had not always
been appropriate. I I think, you know,
my regret was that he couldn't just
reflect openly on that and and apologize
and instead he launched this attempt to
claim conspiracy. Um when he died, I I
thought hard and and actually wished I
could just have excised the chapter
about the breakdown of our relationship
from from my book. The reason I I
couldn't is that right up until the
point he died, he was claiming that I'd
been part of a conspiracy against him.
And to this day, supporters of his are
claiming that. And it I felt it was
necessary to set out I was going to say
not I was going to say my side of the
story, but it's the facts of what
happened.
>> But of course, he now can't put his side
of the story. And I think a lot of his
supporters have been very critical of
you for well they say you've waited
until Alex Sammon has died to make these
claims that you've made in the book. Now
I'm sure you would have made them
anyway.
>> I I wish he was still around to read it.
Um I I don't know that it would whether
he would or whether it would make any
difference to him. But I guess all I'd
say is
you know almost every week one of his
supporters claims that I was part of
some kind of conspiracy. So I I would
love to never talk about this again, but
I don't get the opportunity to do that
and I can't just sit back and accept
that what they say. But by being silent
almost implicitly accept that it's true.
Um I had written um the chapter on Alec
before he died, I thought hard about
whether or not to keep it in, but that
was was my my judgment. I also don't
think I could write and I've tried in
the book and I hope I've succeeded to
give him credit for the things he
absolutely deserves credit for. It would
have been easy for me or tempting for me
I guess to rewrite history to say well I
always knew he was a bad one kind of
thing but he was a hugely influential
figure in my life. He was a force for
good in in my life for a long long time.
He achieved great things. We achieved
great things together. So, I've tried
to, you know, be true to that to to
pretend otherwise would wouldn't have
been fair to him or or to me for that
matter. But I can't not give what I
consider to be the the facts around the
reasons for the breakup of our
relationship.
>> What What do you say to his family who
have been crit critical of you for
writing about him in this way in the
book? Um, and and a lot of his friends
have been critical. Jeff Abedine, who's
one of his chief advisers, who I'm sure
somebody you know well, um he says, "I
was brought up that you don't speak ill
of the dead, but if you're going to
speak ill of the dead, at least make
sure your claims stack up." And he he's
done a video of things that he says
you've said in the book, which are just
clearly untrue. What What's your
response to him and what's your response
to his family, particularly his wife,
Moira? I I stand by everything I've said
in the book and some of it, you know,
some of the political stuff, you know,
Jeff was around for some of it and, you
know, knows as well as I do the reality
of some of that. So, I I stand by,
incidentally, I have no argument with
Jeff Aberdine as somebody I was
extremely fond of and and remain. So,
um, but I stand by everything I've said.
I I wish his family uh know the reason I
I thought about taking this chapter out
was because I don't want to cause any
more hurt to his family in particular to
to Moira his wife. But some of the
people who are being critical of me for
writing my side of this are the same
people who still claim completely
wrongly that I was part of a conspiracy
against him. So we seem to be in a
position where they want to continue to
be able to do that but they don't want
me to have the ability to defend myself
and to say actually what happened you
know I I take responsibility for my
behavior and I try to do and for the
decisions I make but what happened
around this episode was rooted in Alec's
behavior and and not in mine. What what
happened to Alec was not my fault. And
you know, if people are going to
continue to say that it was, I I need to
be able to set out the reality because
these claims of conspiracy that still
happen today, you know, the the hurt
they cause me is the least of it. They
cause a lot of hurt to to to to women
who came forward with the the
complaints. So, you know, I I would love
to stop talking about this episode in in
my life. I have no desire to keep
talking about it, but you know, I wake
up many days um to find some other some
supporter of Alec or other continuing to
claim that this was all some conspiracy
against him.
>> Do you not think you should pick up the
phone and speak to Moira about it and
explain to her why why you feel the need
to do this?
>> I don't think Moira would welcome that.
I haven't spoken to Moira for a long
time. again, she's somebody um obviously
I didn't know nearly as well as I knew
Alec, but somebody I interacted with
over you know my earlier time in
politics. Um if if there was ever, you
know, any sense that Moira wanted that,
of course, but I don't think and I don't
think I would be um I I don't think that
would be a kind thing for me to to do to
Moira. I I have no ill will towards
Moira or to Jeff, but I I am not going
to just sit back and accept this version
of events that what happened to Alec was
somehow instigated by me or by my fault.
And I don't think I don't think it's
reasonable for anybody to expect that I
should do that.
I read the chapter on Alex the as the
first chapter in the book because I'
I've been fascinated at how two allies,
very powerful allies, clearly very close
friends, had fallen out over the years.
And I thought particularly moving was
the last bit about your reaction when
you heard that he'd died. And I think we
were all completely I remember hearing
about it driving up the M4 and I I was
in tears on on the phone cuz I I very
much liked Alex. We had a few fallings
out over the years, particularly over
going to Russia today, which I know you
disapproved of. Um, but the the the the
way that you write about it, it's almost
as if it's sort of he was someone that
you were almost married to, but you
you'd got divorced and then you suddenly
hear he's died and and you react in a
very emotional way.
>> Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't use that
analogy, but we were really close. Um,
and obviously more professionally and
politically than, you know, you knew
Alec, he wasn't a great one for, you
know, emotional kind of expressions of
of feeling, but I think we were friends
and and I, you know, as I've said in the
past, I I loved the guy as as a close
colleague and friend. And so, you know,
when we stopped talking when the
breakdown happened, which was, you know,
in short, because I wouldn't help him
sort of push away the the allegations
that had been
>> originally made about him and he
wouldn't and couldn't forgive me for
that. Um, and when we stopped talking, I
went through then what I can only
describe, and I do describe it in the
book, as a grieving process. I I used to
have I used to have vivid dreams where,
you know, we'd be on old terms and good
terms and then I'd wake up and you know
that way you wake up from a really vivid
dream and for a few seconds you think
it's real and then I'd remember it
wasn't real and I'd be hit with this
wave of loss and sadness. And before he
died, I thought I'd got to a kind of
place of peace and not feeling that
anymore. And then I got a phone call
from, you know, Ian Blackford as it
happened to tell me he died and I was
hit with that all over again. So it's
it's deeply complex. My I'm not sure
I'll ever get to a point of being
utterly at peace with the whole
situation with Alec because
it was so complex. And you know, I I had
thought we would never reconcile. I
remember saying that to you in an
interview at the the Edinburgh Fringe.
And I think the reason for that was that
for for there to be any prospect of
reconciliation, I thought he would have
had to concede, well, okay, I should
have behaved better and it wasn't a
conspiracy. I didn't think he would ever
do that. So, I had come to terms with
we'll never be on speaking terms again.
>> But it's one thing thinking that can
when somebody's still alive, but when
they're suddenly not and you know there
is absolutely no prospect, then that's a
very different thing.
>> Final question on this. My sense when I
finished reading that chapter was that
this was more than a political
friendship. Uh you said you loved him as
a colleague and a friend. Was there ever
any romantic relationship with
>> Absolutely. Categorically not. I mean
you know back in the day I you know was
fond of the guy, loved the guy, but no
definitely not.
>> Okay. Right. We will move on to other
subjects with Nicola Sturgeon in just a
moment. We're talking about her memoir
called Frankly. It's 9:45 7:47. We're
with Nicola Sturgeon. Um, you you met
Donald Trump uh No, you never met him,
did you?
>> I had a phone call with him just after
which you you more or less have
transcribed from from memory, which I
think was hilarious the the way you
describe it. But um he called you a bad
first minister recently.
>> I think terrible was the word he used.
>> Okay. Well, I was being kind. Um how do
you react to that?
>> I wear as a badge of honor and it was
nice of him to do it just the week
before my book came out as well. I
thought it was I thought it was great
for listen. I'm going to have the quote
on the front of the paperback because we
just missed the the hard part.
>> Right. Um, now obviously one of the
issues that has caused you a lot of well
has caused a lot of controversy is your
view on gender recognition. Now, you
said in a recent interview that anyone
who rapes a woman quotes forfeits the
right to be the gender of their choice.
In fact, I think you write almost those
words in the book. What do you mean by
that? Probably.
>> Oh, look. I I think the one of the
mistakes I made and I just was unable uh
to communicate properly over this was
around Isla Bryson, the prisoner that
caused all the
>> the controversy who incidentally did go
to a male prison. Uh I think they were
assessed in a female prison
>> I think within a day actually. Um and
the process they went through was
exactly the process that trans prisoners
have been going through for a long long
time. There was nothing different about
that. The the the issue I find is I have
no I'm not concerned about Isa Bryson.
They raped uh women and I have no
concern about them at all. The issue is
in the the whole debate about trans.
Anything I say about somebody like that
gets almost taken to apply to the the
whole trans community. Trans people are
not inherently dangerous to women. Abuse
of men are are dangerous to women. You
will get bad people in every group in
society. Some biologically born women
abuse children, but in no other group in
society do we try to taint the whole
group. I'm a feminist. I've campaigned
and stood up for
>> You see people laugh at you when you say
that now gi given your stance on these
issues.
>> Some people do.
>> Some do. Yes. Quite a lot do actually in
Scotland. But this this is the whole I
think the whole narrative of around this
is intended to suggest that all women
and you know have a particular view. You
know that is not the case. You know many
many women take a different view.
>> But if you're going to be consistent um
on trans rights if you believe in what
you clearly do believe they have to
apply no matter what people's crimes
are. You can't forfeit your gender by
committing a crime.
I think I'm I'm just that person should
be treated and should be in a male
prison and they are in a male prison.
The point and I'm trying to make a a
more general point here which is
the the the issue here is how the wider
trans community are being treated right
now. There is a real cruelty around this
debate um about one of the the most
stigmatized groups in society. And you
know some women I believe a minority of
women can laugh if they want if when I
call myself a feminist but maybe I'm
just at the stage of my life I don't
care I'm a feminist I will continue to
stand up for women's rights but I don't
think that means I can't also and
shouldn't also stand up for the rights
of the trans community. I don't think
these two things are irreconcilable and
I will never accept that. The other
point which again gets totally lost here
is that the the legislation that my
government took through which
incidentally was supported by MSPs of
all parties. It wasn't just an SMP thing
um wasn't some groundbreaking measure.
I've just come back uh this morning from
from Ireland that was been on the
statute book in Ireland for years and
the sky didn't fall in. I'd like to
think we could get to a more rational
place on on this debate where we
absolutely
>> but but surely clarity might help take
the toxicity out of it. I mean I I
hesitate to go back to Isa Bryson but do
you regard Isla Bryson as a woman or
not?
>> Isa Bryson is a rapist and is in a male
prison and that's where they should be.
Um and that's you know I I am concerned
about trans people who've done no harm
to anybody who are being tainted with
the brush of what Isla Bryson has done.
And I think it's really Bryson claims
she's a woman.
>> I don't care. Isa Bryson's in a male
prison and that's where Isa Bryson
belongs because Isla Bryson committed a
heinous male crime against women. But if
this was just about Isla Bryson, that
would be one thing. But this is about um
a debate in which trans people as a
group are being further stigmatized uh
and effectively demonized in our society
right now. and life might be easier for
me if I just said, "Well, okay, I got
that completely wrong and I should never
have tried to make life a bit easier for
trans people, but I'm not going to do
that." And, you know, people can say
what they want about me.
>> What's your message to JK Rowling, who
didn't seem to like your book very much.
>> Um, she's entitled to her opinion. I'm
I'm a great admirer of her work. I've
bought Harry Potter books for all the
young people in my life and I'll I'll
continue to do so though most of well
all my nephews and my niece are beyond
that stage uh now she's entitled to her
opinion. What I regret is I think uh
somebody in her position appearing to me
to be punching down on trans people. Um
you can express your opinion, you can
have your debate and I guess if she's
having a go at me, she's not doing that.
So that's that's one good thing. And and
maybe maybe one of the problems in
society these days is there's too many
unaccountable billionaires trying to
dictate political debate.
>> Who are who are they?
>> Well, there's lots of them. Elon Musk
for one.
>> Okay.
>> Um what's next for you? Are you finished
with politics?
>> H I am finished with politics. Well, not
until the Scottish election next year.
Um I
>> Well, that actually that's an
interesting point because one of the
other taxi driver questions I had was
why is she still taking a salary from
the Scottish Parliament? I'm still doing
a job as an MSP.
>> But but are you
>> Yes.
>> Are you speaking in parliament?
Parliament. Are you asking questions?
>> I ask questions. Uh speaking in
parliament is not the only part of the
job of a an MSP. I my constituency is
just across the river from here and I
represent my constituents and I have
always taken that job very seriously. So
yes, I'm doing my job as a an MSP.
>> And you will continue to until the
elections.
>> Absolutely. Continue to until the
elections next year.
>> But then that's the dividing line. So
no, no more. You you wouldn't consider
standing for Westminster?
>> Absolutely not. Have no desire. I never
really had any desire to go to West I
did stand for Westminster and would have
gone had I been elected. I wasn't. Um
but no, I've always wanted to pursue my
politics in Scotland. And I think in the
book, you know, I've one of the things
the last couple years has taught me is
that you never know what's around the
corner. So never say never to anything.
But as of now, um I am done with elected
politics and I don't see myself ever
standing for
>> Would you like a big international job?
>> No. Um I'd like I'm enjoying right now
not having the constraints of, you know,
obviously I'm passionately supportive of
the SMP. I'm a member of the S&P, always
will be. Um but I'm enjoying not always
just having to take a party line on
everything. I'm enjoying not having the
constraints of a a big organization. And
you know, who knows? And in times to
come, I might change my mind. I've loved
writing the book. I'd love to write
more. I care about lots of different
causes and I want to, you know, find
ways of of contributing in some way to
them. But I'm enjoying a life that is, I
guess, just freer than I've experienced
for a long time.
>> And I know the S&P don't nominate people
for the House of Lords, but if Karma
rang you up one day and said, "Look, I
think you'd be brilliant in the House of
Lords as a crossbench pier." I mean, I
suspect you'd have to climb over Ian
Blackford's twitching carcass first, but
would you would you even consider that?
>> Sorry, I'm laughing. Ian Blackford is
one of my dearest friends. I'm still
laughing. I like him. I like him, too.
And he will he will love.
>> He will enjoy that actually. Um I would
not consider you will absolutely that's
one thing I can say definitively. Look,
I I disagree with the House of Lords in
principle. I don't think people should
be making laws when they're they're not
elected. So, you will never find me in
the House of Lords. But you have thought
about moving away from Scotland which is
another surprise.
>> Moving away
spending some, you know, short periods
of time outside of Scotland. I mean, I'm
>> living in London.
>> I possibly a period in London. Um, but
possibly elsewhere as well. I've just
come back from Dublin and I've been
reminded all over again how much I love
that city. So, um, I don't think I'll
ever be out of Scotland for very long.
It's my home. It's where I belong. It's
where I feel happiest. But again, going
back to I was so focused on work when I
was younger. I never lived outside of
Scotland when I was younger. I think
there's something healthy about seeing
your own country from the outside for a
period. I this is not a complaint, but
obviously there is a lot of scrutiny on
me in Scotland. Um I'm not complaining
about that, but it it might be nice just
even for a period of a few months to to
experience life somewhere else and and
then come back to Scotland with a a
different perspective maybe. um apart
from not achieving independence which I
get I mean that's raised on detr of the
S&P it's why you you joined the SMP um
but it hasn't happened during your
period as first minister apart from that
what would you like to say sorry for I I
I think on the educational attainment
gap which I you know made and you know I
don't regret making the big commitment
to close that in my time as first
minister I think I under um appreciated
the the need to do more to tackle what
happens outside schools with uh you know
tackling child poverty uh the thing that
holds many kids back and and did a lot
the Scottish child payment being an
example of that. But I I wish I'd been
able to do more um on the educational
attainment gap. Um I think progress has
been made and will continue to be made,
but I um I shouldn't have made the the
commitment I did without being sureer
that I could meet it.
>> Um cheeky question. Did your pal Val
McDermad give you writing tips?
>> No.
>> Because it's a very well I mean sorry
this sounds very she writing but it's a
very well-ritten book. I think
>> I
>> it has pace. You can tell a story.
>> I had an editor from Pan McMillan
Publishers who was brilliant. Um but I
wrote the book entirely myself. I I
wouldn't have recorded the audio book
myself. The idea that somebody else
would tell my story
>> that's not an enjoyable experience is
it? I hate it.
>> I I didn't hate it. I mean, it's hard
work, harder than you think, but
absolutely categorically not. Val did
not. She gave me one tip early on in the
writing process. And excuse my language
in advance. Um, where I I was
struggling. I was kind of had writer's
block to use the grand terminology one
morning. So, I texted Val to say, "Does
this happen to you? Um, how do I how do
I get over it?" And she came back with
the very sage advice. Stop fanning about
on WhatsApp and just write. So, that is
the sum total of the advice Val gave me,
but it was good advice.
>> So, that's why you're so bad at replying
on WhatsApp.
>> I'm terrible at replying on WhatsApp.
Um, I apologize. That was that was a
justified dig at the end. Dian,
>> ju just just a um a news story that's
been in the certainly the English
newspapers over the past couple of days
that this phenomenon of people putting
up English flags all over the place.
Now, I've always thought this was a
weird thing where if you put up the
Scottish flag in Scotland, uh, and use
the word nationalist, everything that
everyone thinks that's fine. In England,
if you put up the English flag and talk
about English nationalism, that's
somehow seen as not acceptable. Have you
often thought that's a bit odd?
>> Yeah, I mean, I'm I, you know, I'm an
independent supporter. I'm not a big
flags person. I don't, you know,
routinely fly the soul tire. Um, I think
in any country there's nothing wrong
with having pride in your flag and being
able to fly the flag. And you know, I
really hope England is an independent
country at some point in the future.
>> Well, there's a thought there. Maybe
that should be our phone discussion for
the next hour. Uh, Nicholas, it's been
an absolute pleasure. Thank you very
much. There's a lot we haven't covered
and I know people say, "Why didn't you
ask about this? Why didn't you ask her
about that?" But there's only so much
you can fit into uh, one hour. The book
is by Nicholas Sturgeon. It's called
Frankly, published by Pan McMillan uh in
hardback at £28.